Extraordinary Sales Results: Tips, Mistakes, The Value Equation

Episode 9 (00:36:18)


Archie Kelley, Managing Principal of SalesPhysics and creator of The Value Equation, joins us to discuss his sales technique aimed at creating a pathway to extraordinary sales results. Archie explains how value is at the core of successful selling, and provides three tips to boost success and three mistakes to avoid.

Archie Kelly
Managing Principal
SalesPhysics, LLC
Connect with Archie on LinkedIn

Sonia (0:06) Hello and welcome to this episode of Banking Out Loud. I’m your host, Sonia Portwood, and today we are going to be discussing sales tips, we are going to be talking about The Value Equation. A way of adding value to your clients and your sales process. This sales technique was developed by Archie Kelly, the managing principal of SalesPhysics. This Value Equation has been proven to significantly increasing sales productivity, your revenue and team morale – which I can attest as PCBB has been using the Value Equation for some time now. Hello Archie, welcome to our podcast.  Archie (0:45):  Well, thank you, Sonia, and it's certainly my pleasure to be on the call with you today. Sonia (0:52): And looking at your bio, you’ve been in the financial industry for over 35 years. You’ve held leadership and sales leadership positions at both large and small community financial institutions. And in the middle of all that, you retired briefly, and that’s when you created The Value Equation – that’s the formula, that when you returned to banking, allowed you to coach and lead teams to achieve extraordinary results by significantly increasing sale productivity, revenue and team moral.  To get us started, lets first talk about how you got where you are today – what led you to banking, and to developing the Value Equation? Archie (1:30): Well, You and I've worked together some and I'm not sure you even know this, but growing up, I was kind of a closet physicist, if that makes any sense. As a little kid, we only had four channels on television back then, so I would spend part of my summers watching science documentaries on ETV or Public Broadcasting, and I was fascinated by some of the things that I saw and how scientists and physicists would use simple equations to explain very complicated mysteries of the universe. Archie (02:05): So I kind of carried that with me, but I never could figure out how to make money being a physicist, so I decided to go into banking and finance, but a couple things impacted me very early on, and one of those things was this kind of sales cliché that a lot of us hear, if value is greater than price, people will buy, and that's a true statement, I guess, but what happens is, so you think, "Well, why do so many people still sell on price versus selling old value?" Well, to me, it was pretty simple. Everybody understands price. Very few people have a broad and in-depth understanding of what value is. It tends to be a very kind of a shallow understanding, and that's why so many folks and so many organizations sometimes rely on price to win business,  Archie (02:54): And one other thing impacted me when first got into sales and sales leadership was I was at a large bank and we had a big meeting. We had probably two or 300 people in the room, and the executive of our division got up in front of the group and said, said a lot of things, but the one thing that he said that struck me was, "Hey, everyone. We want you to go out there and sell on value, not price. Our margins are tight, we've got to expand our margins, we've got to not discount price. So, we need you to sell on value, not price." Archie (03:28): Now, of course, I'm sitting there thinking, "Okay, I understand price. He's about to tell me what value is," and he never did. And the meeting ended and it was like okay, we're all going to go out there and sell value, and not that we didn't go out and have success. But that was one of the things early on that got me curious about what is value. So, we were always in search of what is value, how do we create it, but never got any real formal training on what it meant and how it worked. Got a lot of training over the years, but never specifically around that comment, "Sell value, not price." Sonia (04:04): I think that's an excellent point. I've been in banking over 35 years and in sales in one aspect or another as well, and I lead the sales team here at PCBB, and while we have excellent people in the seats, and I do believe they add value, we are all about adding value to our clients, but I had never seen anyone actually break it down in a manner that was easily digestible and actionable the way that you had. And when I met you and was first introduced to The Value Equation, I knew immediately that that was something that we needed to introduce to our team because it would add so much value to their efforts in talking to the clients, So I agree with you. It is something that is talked about a great deal, but no one is told actually how to produce it. Archie (04:59): Sonia, to add on to what you just said, even talking about early on in my career when there was this question about what is value and how do you sell value? They never went into specifics about what this was. There was always this discussion about, "Oh. Well, you can't really define value. Value is determined by the client or the customer. So, there's really no way to define it per se,"  Archie (05:22): So that was kind of the gist of the sales training was you have to talk to the client, understand what the client wants, and then you can provide them what they need, and there's truth in that, but it still didn't resolve the issue, at least in my mind, what value was, how it worked and so forth. And then in that two years after I retired from Bank of America, that two-year period is when we really, me and a colleague, really delved into what value was about, how it worked and really created what we think is a very precise simple understanding of what it is, how it works and then how it can be executed upon for folks to really get the kind of results they're looking for. Sonia (from 6:07): So, Archie, what is The Value Equation? Archie (6:10): Well, Sonia, The Value Equation is a way of defining value in terms of how the client views value. There's a lot of different definitions of value out there for different industries and so forth, but in terms of a client looking to do business with a bank or looking to do business with a partner or a vendor or something of that nature, how the client views the world is obviously extremely important, and The Value Equation describes that specifically, and what drove us to develop it was... I know this may sound kind of strange, but what drove us to develop it was the search for truth. We had been told all sorts of things through training throughout our careers, and it never really quite resonated with us, and we saw what was working and what wasn't working in terms of our own careers and the careers of our peers and other banks as well, and we took kind of a broad approach and then we narrowed it down to the things that really speak to how the client is viewing the world. Sonia (07:15): So, Archie, I would ask you, how do you describe or define value? Archie (07:23): In terms of defining value, I think the first thing we start with is the four steps to creating value because once you kind of see that in context, then it makes a whole lot of sense in terms of why it's so important to create value. The first one is defining value, the question you just asked me, is if you can't define value, how can you create it consistently and be able to ultimately deliver the maximum value that you want to deliver to your client? So, it all starts with understanding how to define it, okay? We'll talk a little bit more about that in just a minute. Archie (08:01): The second step is creating value, it's your sales process, okay? The third step is how do you present value? How do you communicate value? So, you've defined it. You've created it through your sales process. You then have to be able to communicate it effectively and coherently and simply to a client so they understand what it is you're delivering to them. And then lastly, it's then how do you deliver that value. How do you as an individual, and as an organization deliver the value. And a lot of that is about everyone in the organization understanding these concepts and where they fit into delivering value to the client or the customer. Archie (08:42): Now as far specifically how to define value, there's two types of value. There's fundamental value, which we all kind of innately are looking for as human beings, and then there's specific value. So, the fundamental value is what we refer to in The Value Equation, it's what we explain in The Value Equation. Specific value is more about the client's goals, their needs, the challenges that are preventing them from achieving their goals. So, it's specific to that client and can change pretty dramatically from client to client, and how these two things kind of intertwine in the sales process, the client sometimes blends the two together. Archie (09:25) So, understanding both and how to execute around both, and how both fundamental and specific value help you win deals. Most sales training you'll see in coaching is around specific value. They don't talk about fundamental value, because here again, most sales training companies think that value emanates specifically from that transaction that the client is looking to execute. Sonia (09:50) Archie, you said something that I think is very important, I'd like to put a little more emphasis on it, is that when you think of yourself as the customer, they have typically a goal they're trying to reach or a problem they're trying to solve. If you can solve that for them, that is value, you are adding value to them, and oftentimes they may think they know what they need to solve that problem, but they may not. They may be looking in the wrong direction. So, in the initial meetings with your customer, it is very important to identify their goals, their objectives, and the challenges they are facing, then if you can solve both, you are adding value. Archie (10:37): That's absolutely correct. distinguishing between goals and challenges and needs. A lot of times salespeople and bankers find themselves is a place where the client has already decided in some way, shape or form what they think they need, and they're shopping with the various providers to find a solution or find what's the best price, or whatever. So, it's really important, as you said is identifying the goals, the challenges, objectives of that client, and then linking your solutions, and it takes some time and practice to learn how to do this, but taking your solution and linking it to the goal. Archie (11:16): If you just provide a solution and, oh, well the solution provides you the ability not to have to go to the bank anymore, you can do all your banking at your desk. That's good, but sometimes the client doesn't connect that to their goals, and I'll give you a quick example. I was at a community bank at the time, we were calling a relatively large client and we talked about many different things. We were going through kind of our exploratory sales process, understanding their goals and challenges and so forth, and basically, their goals came down to they were trying to grow 20, 25% a year on revenue, and then they were trying to maintain their cost structure as best they could, and they felt like if they continued to grow, they were going to have to hire some people. Archie (11:54): And so, we came back, one of our solutions in this big proposal that we made was of course remote deposit because one of the issues they were having was they had staff that were spending two or three hours a day going to the various banks that they utilized, and it was obviously costing a lot of time and money. So we offer the solution, we linked it to, "You can continue your growth trajectory and manage your expenses by being more efficient and utilizing this product," and of course, long story short, we ended up winning the client and it was, again, many other things involved, but they brought up specifically remote deposit at the end of the discussion, and they said, "Our current bank was out here about six months ago and told us about this product," and of course, I'm thinking my bubble just got deflated because I thought I was really smart finding a solution for them and linking it to their goal, and I said, "Well, why didn't you do it?" And the owner said, "Well, they presented it as if they just didn't want us coming down to the branch anymore." Archie (12:58): In other words, she proceeded as the bank was doing themselves a favor by offering the product, and it was the exact same product, basically the same price. We linked it to the goal, which resonated. We won the business; the other bank lost a good client because they just came out and pushed a product. That's the difference. And not everything's that simple, but it manifests itself in so many different ways, in so many different client interactions. Sonia (13:27): How were able to identify the actual goal in the conversations? What did you do to identify that goal? Archie (13:39): Well, it's hard to cut corners. You have to build a rapport, you have to establish some sort of trust, you have to ask them if it's okay if you ask questions, because you want to know how we can potentially help them and create value for them, and once they give you the okay, then it's kind of open season, then you can start asking these questions about what are your goals and challenges, how do you think you're going to achieve those goals over the period you're looking to achieve the goals you're interested in. Archie (14:09): So, it's really a matter of just having normal dialogue, being authentic, not being salesy at all, but being interested in helping them, and trying to help them achieve the goals they want to achieve, not to sell a product because that's what they assume when the bankers show up or salespeople show up. They know ultimately that's what you want to do, but taking a step back and being patient and focusing on what's important to them, that really is key, because the more you know about the client, the more opportunities to potentially help them be successful and to create the value they're looking for. Archie (14:46): So, as we go through fundamental value, which again is The Value Equation, it's made up of six elements and those six elements interact with each other. Now, number one is relationship, okay? Whether you're a small bank, a large bank, you have to build relationships. Now, all these organizations do it maybe in a slightly different way, but establishing some type of relationship.  Archie (15:11): The next element after relationship is monetary financial benefit. That's not just price. Price is a subset of that particular element. Monetary financial benefit is kind of all-encompassing. It's all the different ways we can help a client or a prospect save money or make money, positively impact their financial ratios. Anything to do with the financial side of their business and how we might be able to positively influence that.  Archie (15:38): From a truly value perspective, the clients, although it may seem like it, they just want to know what the price is, that's not really their objective. They want to know how this is going to affect them financially, if you're focused on price, you're in a position of competing on price and being kind of in a commodity-sourced situation. Sonia (15:57): It is very hard for some people not to talk about price, and if someone is struggling with that and, "How do I introduce price? When do I bring it up?" How would you coach them? Archie (16:10): I would tell them that price is important. There's going to be a time for that. But the first thing is I need to understand what their goals and challenges are, how they currently do things, what is it that they think they need in order to help them achieve the goal or thing that they're trying to achieve. Sonia (16:26): Do you ever find in talking to a customer that you never bring up price? Archie (16:31): Well, the answer is yes. I've had many situations where we never shared the actual price of the product price that we were offering. It was in the context of the overall benefit to the client financially. Staying away from price and focusing on value, financial value, holistically is where you want to be because it takes you out of the commodity discussion, to be more viewed as a value creator. Sonia (16:59): Right, because it doesn't matter to the client whether you're saving them money or making them money. It's the same. Archie (17:06): Correct. Now, we had the price there with us when we were doing our presentation so if they asked specifically for the price, we could have given it to them, but they never did. They were satisfied that we were going to save them X amount of money because we were going to make them more efficient. So, they were more interested in the holistic, "What am I going to make? What am I going to save?" Sonia (17:25): Right, and what's keeping me up at night. Now, I'm going to sleep. Archie (17:29) That's right. Sonia (17:30) Ok, back to the six elements to creating value. What’s next? Archie (17:36): Well, Sonia. The first two elements, relationship and financial benefit are pretty straight forward. Now this is where the real magic starts to happen. The third element is what we refer to as efficiency and ease of doing business. So, any way we can help a client, the employees at that company, be more efficient, make things easier for them, reduce the number of steps they have to execute in order to transact their banking activity or a process anything we can do to make them more efficient on the financial side, regardless of what that is, allows them to spend resources in other areas to support their clients. Archie (18:15): The fourth element is what we refer to as risk improvement or risk mitigation. Now, there's all kinds of risk out there, transaction risks, fraud risk, credit risk, personal risk, employee safety risk. There's all kinds of things going on and the ability to identify ways that we can help change the risk profile in a positive way for a client or company can be hugely valuable to them. Archie (18:39) The fifth element is something we refer to as the pain of change or friction, being able to minimize. See, the other four, you want to enhance. This one, we want to minimize because you could go create a million dollars’ worth of value for someone, but if it's going to cost them 1,000,002 to implement it, that's obviously negative value. So being able to minimize the pain of change, reduce the amount of friction if a client's considering doing business with us is hugely important. Has anyone ever seen an Apple owner's manual? Maybe there's some little pamphlet they put in there, but you don't have to read it. All you do is pick up the phone and start using it. Archie (19:19): Now, I would suspect that if there was a 50-page owner's manual to an Apple iPhone, they probably wouldn't have sold as many phones. So, the pain of change reducing is hugely important. Being able to minimize it as much as possible adds to the value you're able to create. it puts you in a better position from an overall value perspective. Archie (19:41): The last element is what we refer to as the customer experience expectation, and that one's probably more important than all the other elements. It's your brand. Its what people think about you. Its what people think about doing business with your company and you as an individual. It's the experience people have when they call into the customer service center, or they go into one of your banking centers or branches. That experience expectation, what they've heard, if they heard you don't quite execute as well as you portray, then that can be detrimental, but as a salesperson or a banker, you can have tremendous influence on that in so many different ways. Archie (20:22): Just like you were saying some very nice things about what I do and what SalesPhysics does, that's a certainly a positive for me, if your clients are out there saying good things, it's going to have a tremendous benefit. So, whatever you go out and tell someone in terms of how you can create value for them, if other people are telling them the same thing, it's hugely beneficial. Sonia (20:41) Right. It's about creating advocates for your financial institution. Archie (20:46): That's absolutely right. focus some time and attention around how do we communicate the experience customers have when they do business with us, that's hugely important.  Sonia (20:58): That's a great point, and one thing that's included in your value equation, which I think also makes it very unique to sales training, is that your organization understands The Value Equation because it takes everyone recognizing that they play a role in the ultimate customer experience. Archie (21:18): That's right. That connects everyone together. We refer to it as the language of value. If everyone's using the same language, it creates a culture of value, and that's one of the things that we try to promote is it's not just about sales. Sales is tremendously important. But, how you then live up to all of the things that you're telling folks, you then have to execute, and if the folks in the call centers and the folks in operations and in administration and compliance all understand this concept of value and what their role is in that delivery of value, it creates tremendous benefits across the board. Archie (21:57): The sales people appreciate it because they don't feel like they're just out there talking Everybody's talking from the same sheet of music, so to speak, and it can be very powerful.  Sonia (22:08): Right. Right. I agree with you 100%. I would imagine that it's important that the president or the CEO or the organization is buying to The Value Equation. Archie (22:19): I think one of the keys to the organization being able to implement this culture of value is... It does start at the top, it starts with the CEO establishing that this is how we want to communicate, this is how we want to talk to clients. We want to talk to each other and our clients in this language of value. Again, it can be very powerful, but it does start, I think, with the top. Archie (22:43): Now, one of the things I've seen done, and I've done this myself, and how you actually execute this from a management perspective is when I've walked into a sales meeting or a pipeline meeting, and people are talking about what clients they're working on, what prospects they're working on, invariably, there's this percentage to close, the 25% chance of closing, the 50% chance, the 75% chance and so forth, and I've always been fascinated around that as well. What does 50% mean, or what does 75% mean? Archie (23:13): What I like to do is I like to just question, "Okay, well we have a 75% chance of winning this opportunity. Why do we think that? What value have we created that leads us to believe we've got a 75% chance of winning this or 50% chance? What have we done specifically around developing the relationship? What have we identified from a financial benefit perspective? What have we learned and what have we identified as points of efficiency for this particular prospect or client that we're working with?"  Archie (23:45): What have we done around the elements of value that leads us to believe we're in a position from a relationship perspective that we should beat out our competition? Now, hopefully that gives you kind of a sense for how this can manifest itself in the organization in a way that it becomes part of the lexicon, part of the language, part of how we do business. It's in a way kind of how we, in a very friendly way, hold each other accountable, because I can assure you once an executive walks in and starts asking questions around these elements of value, people start going, "Oh, they're serious about us talking and executing and delivering in terms of value, It's not just business as usual anymore." Sonia (24:27): So, you've worked at the larger banks and you've worked at community banks and oftentimes community banks find themselves competing against the larger banks. Is there any advice that you can give our community banks on how they help, or that may give them a little bit of an advantage or just something that may help them when they are competing against a large money center bank? Archie (24:51): Mm-hmm. One of the things that I think community banks have an advantage on, if they take advantage of it, is communication. I'll give you an example of what I mean by that. We were calling on a large law firm and they were with a very large bank and they were using not all of their services, but they were using quite a few services, their online banking, and they were doing all kinds of functions with their online banking and so forth. And so long story short, we got to the point where we were doing a gloat of our services, our online package, and we had a very in-depth conversation where they were asking questions, we were showing them different ways to do things and so forth, and we got to the end and they said, "Wow. We can't believe this. Your platform does so much more than our current bank." Archie (25:31): And of course, I knew who their current bank was and it was the top five bank in the country, and I was thinking to myself, "Okay, us as a $4 billion community bank has more capability, or she thinks we have more capability than her existing top five money center bank," and I knew that wasn't true because I knew how much money they spent developing their product, but we took the time to listen to what they were trying to do and communicate with them on how to do it. If you want to compete against the big banks, their vulnerability in many cases is they have a lot of customers and they have difficulty communicating what they can do to those customers.  Sonia (26:09): That is absolutely true, and I'm glad that you brought that up and it should help build some confidence when you are competing against a product that may be superior to yours. Archie (26:20): That's right.  Sonia (26:21): So, Archie, I know you've worked with a number of community banks, including PCBB, and I would like you talk a little bit about another community bank that you've worked for and what they were looking for and what you were able to assist them with. What did that process look like and what was the end result? Archie (26:40): Okay, this one is one that takes in a lot of parts of The Value Equation, the banker had gone out and called on the client and there's a very strong relationship between that particular company and their existing bank. They almost didn't pursue it because there was board relationships between a law firm that both the existing bank and the client utilized. They decided to pursue it and execute The Value Equation, and what they did is they went through and understood what the goals were, what their challenges were, what they were trying to accomplish.  Archie (27:15): They were looking at the value elements and they were saying, "We need to see if we can find other things this organization is doing that maybe potentially interact with some of the value elements, Well, they decided to pursue a discussion around some function that was taking about 5% of their business. It was the cash processing. This company had gone from processing a lot of cash to processing very little cash. The problem is how they were processing it hadn't changed in many years. Archie (27:42): So what was keeping the CEO up at night was they had four locations that cash was still coming in from, and they had kind of a very antiquated way of processing it, and then someone from that location would drive a fair distance to deliver that cash to the bank, and the CEO was almost weekly had kind of a concern that something was going to happen, one of his employees was going to get robbed, and so there was a lot of concern and risk associated with that process. So of course, the team took that under advisement, put their whole presentation together, came back and had a smart safe solution to secure the cash in a smart safe, and then electronically transfer those funds to their bank account versus someone having to go deliver that to the bank,  Archie (28:29): That solution won them the entire deal, and it was only 5% of their business activity, but it was so important from an employee safety standpoint, that was what drove the decision. So that's how powerful it can be, and sometimes it's a very small thing. Many deals are won on the margin.  Sonia (28:51): Winning at the margin is a great example of how The Value Equation can make you successful. Archie (28:57): True. True. So, everybody gets the 80 or 90%, right? In most cases. It's that many cases, decisions are decided on the margin, and it may not be big in dollars and cents, but it could be big in terms of things like risk efficiency and so forth. Sonia (29:14): In your experience, could you give us a couple of ideas about what works and what does not work when you're dealing with a client or a potential client? Archie (29:25): I think one of the things that works almost across the board in every scenario is be authentic, be curious. Clients and prospects like to talk about what they're doing, so asking the right questions is probably more important than all the product knowledge in the world. I mean, product knowledge is very important, but clients tend to evaluate us on the questions we ask I have been a buyer and that's one of the things that would frustrate me don't make assumptions that you know what the client needs before they tell you what they need or what their goals are. I think we mentioned that earlier, but being patient, don't focus on the sale, focus on helping the client, changing financial partners is a big deal and companies in particularly, the larger they get, they don't take that lightly. So being patient, being focused, creating maximum value is the way to go, I think. The last thing I'll say is the ability to communicate value effectively and coherently. You can go have a lot of interactions with clients, you can ask a lot of great questions, you can come up with a lot of solutions, but being able to put it all together in a simple, easy to understand format so that they can see, "Okay, this is the relationship value I'm going to achieve. This is the financial value I'm going to achieve. This is the points of efficiency that this financial institution is bringing to my organization." Archie (30:52): And then how does that value impact them being able to achieve their goals? If you can do that in a presentation that has a tremendous impact on the client being able to connect the dots.  Sonia (31:04): That's an excellent point, Archie. You've got to ask the questions. You've got to figure out what their goals are, and then you have got to tie it back, your solution, back to that goal so that it is crystal clear. Archie (31:18): Yes, absolutely. Sonia (31:20): If our listeners walk away with that single point I can't help but believe they'll see a difference in their closure rates. Archie (31:28): Agreed. Sonia (31:30): So now that we've talked a little bit about three things that they can absolutely implement immediately, tell us three things that don't work, that they should steer clear of. Archie (31:41): Sonia, I think the three things that I'll mention today is a banker or a salesperson walking into a client or prospect's office talking about their company, their bank, the products they offer and what those products do. That's probably the thing that you want to avoid at all costs. The other thing is falsely assuming the client knows what they need. Again, we did touch on this earlier, but if you're in a position to where the client already knows what they need, you're probably selling on price or you're a commodity seller at that point. Archie (32:16): So, don't always assume that they know what they need. And this one, I've experienced this last one a lot in my career is where a banker or a salesperson tries to be the Lone Ranger, and they're going to go out and they're going to kind of just do it on their own. I would say that's not the right approach, particularly as companies get larger bring other resources that you have, bring people in that have expertise in certain areas. Archie (32:44): Having that expertise and showing a depth of knowledge and capability and relationship is hugely important, I would say, particularly for young bankers going out and going head-to-head with a big bank or a regional bank, it’s very difficult to do. So, bringing in, in the appropriate situations, a team of people to deliver the maximum value you can, I think, is appropriate. Sonia (33:09)  Bringing in bench strength. It also highlights the knowledge of your organization, and while that specialist may not get a sale, they're already starting to develop the relationship with that customer, and it leads back to the point you made about being patient, because just because they're not interested in that product today does not mean there won't be a need tomorrow. Archie (33:31): Right, and I can give you a quick example. It was largest client I'd ever won being at a community bank, or I say the team ever won. It ended up being a 40-plus million-dollar DDA relationship, probably our largest DDA client in the organization, but we devised a really, only one way to put it, but a cool relationship plan where the regional president, the market president, the commercial banker, or community banker, the treasury officer and the branch manager all played a role in helping us win this deal, in managing this relationship. The regional president formed a relationship with the CEO, the market president, the commercial banker, and the treasury officer focused on the CFO and the COO Archie (34:16): The point is the banker, could have never orchestrated all of that themselves. and to have any chance of winning a relationship that size, he'd had to bring in these other roles, this other expertise to help deliver the maximum value to those various folks who were going to have influence so it was very well thought out, very well done by the banker, and he certainly deserved a lot of credit for it. Sonia (34:41): Great example, Archie. Well, I hope that our audience has recognized the value in selling on value, and Archie, if someone would be interested in reaching out to you about how they may bring The Value Equation into their organization, how could they reach you? Archie (35:00): Well, they can reach me at my email, Archie.kelly@salesphysics.com. We have a website. They can reach out to us on www.salesphysics.com, and of course they can contact me on LinkedIn and we can connect and have a conversation. Sonia (35:15): Well, Archie, thank you so much for being our guest today on Banking Out Loud. We appreciate you sharing all of your knowledge and experience with us, and our hope is that our listeners have found something that they can use in their day-to-day activities as they talk to their clients and as they meet with other groups within the organization, thank you so much, Archie, and for joining us. Archie (35:39): Thank you, Sonia. It was my pleasure. Sonia (35:41): To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If you haven’t already, make sure to check out our other episodes and subscribe so you are the first to know when a new episode drops. We are always looking for suggestions on what to cover, if you have something in mind you’d like to know more about, please let us know. You can email us at bankingoutloud@pcbb.com.  Until next time, take care.